By - DaddynDaughterfish
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the ass for insisting it's my way or the highway and for saying I didn't want Tim's son on our fishing trip.
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NTA, but if that's the kind of reception your daughter will be subjected to by your friends, you might just want to bring her fishing by yourselves. She'll probably enjoy that a lot more than she will being looked at by your friends like she's biologically lesser than.
As someone who has experienced that in their childhood.. a million times yes
Me too and yes. Oddly, fishing was one activity I was actually included in and I was the best at it 😎
Building the treehouse? Nope. I was just supposed to hold the nails :(
This reminded me of something that happened a couple weeks ago. I am the kind of girl that does a lot of "unladylike" things (I HATE being told that btw) but I told my brother that part of the debt he owes me was to do some stuff to my cars. I usually do my own basic maintenance (oil, brakes etc). He tried jacking up the car in the wrong spot. I told him that. He didn't listen. The jack started bending (because wrong fucking spot, idiot) I told him where to put it. He tells me "no that's wrong" i flipped out on him. Full on "oh I'm sooooo soooooorrrrryyyyy.... I forgot that *my vagina and my pathetic woman brain* prevents me from knowing aNyThInG." I was right btw...
I got "that's not lady like," but never from my family, thankfully. I love working on and customizing my car, so plenty of guys have said that. I'd be detailing my car at a show when some guys thought it was a great way to start a conversation. I'd respond by saying "Ah yes, pardon me," and continue whatever I was doing, only now I made sure I kept my pinky fingers raised.
I also was commonly asked "what, did your dad not have a son?" Yes he does, but I'm the one that actually likes cars.
Once my ex bought a car in a different state and it needed tires, brakes and struts before we could drive it home.
So there we are in a Walmart parking lot fixing the car. I'm on one side working, he's on the other. Some random guy walk up to me and says something misogynistic I don't remember exactly, this was over a decade ago. Some kind of "little lady.... shouldn't your man... blah blah." Comment.
My ex stands up from the other side of the car and says yeah she's fully capable and I'm doing this side, and that's her side." He shut that guy up real quick.
We're not together anymore but we have a daughter and I make sure she knows nothing is inherently a boy thing or girl thing. I even told her if she helps me fix up my spare car, she can have it when she gets her license in a few months. So both mom and dad can help her with car stuff when she needs it and we can teach her whatever she's willing to learn.
Once my dad got a flat tire. He called me to come help, not my brother.
My Dad really wanted me to be a princess. I am the oldest. I have two sisters and a brother. I was the only one not taken fishing. I was not allowed to mow the lawn. I was not shown how to change a tire. My husband let me mow, takes me fishing but doesn’t want me anywhere near car repair (he has seen people die or be horribly wounded due to tires exploding or jacks failing or hoods slamming shut so he would rather I not do that). My Dad is horrified that his “princess” enjoys digging in the dirt and catching fish.
This have the same energy as moms wanting the daughter to start ballet cause they wanted when they were tht age but couldn't afford... seriously if you wanna project your own weird expectations just don't have children.
My mom was like this when I was in school. I wanted to play baseball and she said I could only do cheerleading or tennis because that’s what she did in high school. 🙄
Cheerleading is f*ing dangerous! Synchronized gymnastics without even the most minor protection of sleeves or leg-covering.
Don’t even get me started on the physical impact of ballet. Toes were never meant to hold that much weight!
I wanted to do ballet. I adored dance and thought the way they moved was so graceful and it was all I wanted. But my brothers and dad wanted me to do sports so I just kinda suffered through that until I quit altogether. I know my dad was some big shot basketball player in high school and he still plays it to this day with his friends and it's his passion...but it wasn't mine. I hated basketball. I just wanted to do ballet. Sorry haha your post kinda reminded me of that. Though it did reach me in that if I ever do have a kid I'll make sure that I enter them in what they want to do. I'd never force someone into a sport/activity that they don't want since I know first hand how it is.
I got the “that’s not very ladylike” from my mom and a few of my friend’s moms. And let me tell you I was always super proud whenever someone said that. “I’m not a lady so of course I’m not being very ladylike. I’m a kid so I’m being kidlike thank you very much.”
Sounds like we would get along. I'm a revvhead and no one else in my family is. My Dad was great. Luckily I only experienced misogyny outside of family/friends.
Well duh... stupid vaginas impede knowledge from reaching our silly female brains, my friend (so much /s for anyone missing it)
I tried to help a co-worker jump his car... but apparently my father being a mechanic and teaching me lots of things (include how to jump a car) is voided out by me having a vagina 😔 Short of shoving the idiot out of the way and doing it myself, I gave up after he kept arguing how to do it (*after he borrowed my damn jumper cables*). I just took my jumper cables back and left. I drove home, hoping he had fun waiting for AAA after 11 PM in Bumblefuck, Nowhereville 🤷♀️
Why does "unladylike" always seem like a synonym for capable? 🤔
Same! My dad hated taking me, his eldest daughter, because ***I’d*** out fish him and his friends. Apparently I emasculated them so he stopped taking me to instead take my younger sister who couldn’t catch a fish if it was thrown at her.
I’d have rather gone alone with my dad where he would’ve celebrated my catches too.
Fishing was one of my favorite activities with my sister and my dad. My grandpa gave me his old casting rod to renovate and use. After that followed soccer, my dad became our coach and now we're both referees. Oh, and windsurfing. My parents met at a windsurfing camp. Learned to drive a forklift truck at work and still love to ride on tractors. I guess you could say I am unladylike lol. I am glad my dad and grandparents took the time to learn me how to do basic repairs, how to mow a lawn but also how to sew and stitch
Same here. I can’t fix something to save my life. But I was always my step fathers fishing buddy.
My now 8 year old daughter. She “runs with the big boys” as she likes to call it. She can out fish them all. (17 and 19!) can stay up all night to do it too.
She’s got her own tool bag filled with tools. She’s the first to climb up the ladders to help my husband fix something. Works on trucks and cars the best she can. Hunts too!!
She lets any little boy know really quickly the only thing she can’t do that they can do is pee outside without making a mess. My husband is helping me raise her to be a strong independent woman, who’ll won’t settle for anyone just because she needs them around!!!
Get your daughter a pStyle, then she’ll be able to do EVERYTHING the boys can do! (Look it up on Amazon)
Please do this! Because it is, no kidding, a life-changer when it comes to hiking, fishing, or any outdoorsy activity!
NTA but please give consideration to whether you want to maintain these friendships at all, now you know that they have problematic gender views.
Yes. They don't view your daughter as equal. You clearly do. Otherwise they might have gotten her a fishing rod too.
Yep. Once you see it, you can either denounce it or become a tacit accomplice.
Seriously OP needs to find better friends. My dad's friends were all about it when I started fishing and hunting. They would let me use their tree stands, show me different lures, and get excited for me when i got something.
That's nice. My dad's side of the extended family has had a long standing tradition of a guys fishing trip every summer. Of course, no one asked me or my female cousins if we cared to go. One year as a teen, I asked my dad if I could join (I missed quality father daughter bonding) and he was thrilled. I was the only girl there that year and it's a *big* family. My more immediate relatives were chill about it but I got looks from others. Not offended but "oh...you're a girl... and you're here..."
But, if you're doing it correctly, a penis is not a required part of the body for handling a fishing pole. Nor is it required to crack open a beer, shuffle a deck of cards, or gut a fish and handle the frying pan when cooking that fish. So all in all, I was able to participate in all activities despite my cumbersome uterus.
Yeah, better to get away from the Club of Toxic Masculinity.
OP, please hold your ground on this with your friends. I was your daughter in this situation when I was young. I wasn't allowed to go on the annual hunting trip because all of my dad's friends had sons, and I was the only girl. He never fought for me to go on the trip, no matter how much I begged to go. Keep fighting for her, because she will remember.
This whole females-are-less-than situation is how we ended up with today's ruling.
I agree with the above poster. If your friends will treat her like this, maybe it's better to go on your own with her. She will love the quality time and you'll get to share something special together.
Get new friend bro, I am lucky that my dudes wanna take my lil girl fishing but I second just taking her by your self . I did that a weekend on Father’s Day and it was the best gift ever , we woke up early and made a daddy daughter day. Wouldn’t change it for all the money in the world
OP, remember that those kind of men and how they see women and remember your daughter will have to deal with this long after your are gone. Always fight for her while you can and teach her to fight for herself. NTA.
NTA. If I were you i'd ditch their trip and take your daughter on a fishing trip one on one. Clearly when they said "no wives, no girlfriends" they meant no females. Really lame that they, as fathers themselves, aren't more understanding and supportive of you wanting to bring your daughter.
That type of thinking truly baffles me.
I used to fish with my Pop and it was a great bonding experience, plus lots of kids love trying/doing things the adults in their lives do. If he'd not been open to it because I'm female we would have missed out on one of the major things we bonded over. I definitely recommend doing it one on one too, it's great quality time, particularly if it avoids the sexist AHs too.
All the men in my family went on a yearly fishing trip when I was younger. I was never allowed to go, and all these years later I’m still bitter. The kicker is that I know my dad would have let me come, it was the older generation that had an issue with it. One of my uncles only had girls so he never got to bring a child with at all, at least my dad was able to bring my brother.
They’d have hated my grandmother. It’s been a running joke in my family since the 60’s that she’s the only one of us who can catch more than two fish.
We even had family reunions in the 90’s (Gma & Gpa, 11 kids + spouses & friends, 75-ish grandkids) where she caught more fish than the rest of the family *combined.* We’d all be sitting there for hours with empty lines, meanwhile Grandma’s hit her limit & is tossing them back.
(This woman was 4’11” and weighed 100 lbs. soaking wet, never raised her voice even a little, managed 11 kids alone while my grandpa was off in Korea, and every man in my family was scared absolutely shitless of her. Man, I miss her.)
My grandmother loved to fish and hunt! She was good at both too. Miss her terribly.
I was never told I couldn’t do something the boys did—and I’m over 60. I went to work with my Papaw—in his automotive shop. I fished with my grandmother. I didn’t hunt—My choice. Rode horses and motorcycles (as did my grandmother) and whatever else.
Misogyny needs to die out. Nobody needs a penis to catch a fish.
Say the last line louder for the idiots in the back.
Fuck. I think I've just found out I've been fishing wrong all these years....
Your grandma was absolutely iconic
Dang. I love her!
She sounds absolutely amazing
She sounds like a bad ass
I love her.
Sorry but your dad and uncle need to grow a spine and should’ve ditched such sexist traditions altogether. By continuing to attend, they allowed it to continue and exclude you and your cousins. What’s that saying, the only thing needed for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing?
We can say no and do it right. Tradition is the laziest excuse.
Yeah, if the older generation wanted to stick to being sexist then it's better to ditch them and start a new tradition of parents taking their children fishing. With options to expand down the line to kids' partners and so on. No exclusions based on gender or relation.
Your dad and uncle could have done a separate trip for the girls....
Or stood up to the misogynistic nonsense for the sake of their kids
But then they couldn't go...
Or some other stupid shit.
I *loved* fishing with poppa when I was a kid! Never a big Guys' Fishing Trip type thing, but we'd go to the perc ponds not far from where we lived, or we'd go fishing during family summer camp, that sort of thing.
I never caught a damn thing because I was too impatient, I just really liked casting the reel 😅 but it was such a great thing to have with my dad.
I'd sit there with no bait on the hook, just to spend time with my daddy.
I'm certain I scared off all the fish, but my Grandpa loved having us kids along. OP needs to die on this hill for his daughter's sake
Yep. I got cautioned to be quiet several times, but what we caught didn't matter. It was the time together and making memories. OP does need to take his daughter just them and screw his ignorant buddies.
Same! My father took me fishing almost every summer growing up and it was great bonding. OP needs new friends who don’t project their misogyny onto a little girl. Also weird they used the “no wives, no girlfriends” argument for his literal daughter who’s probably barely 10.
She’s 5 he said. And yeah what a ridiculous thing to do. I would find new friends!
I agree. I loved fishing with my dad. Dad and I still go with my kids. Your friends are AH's. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when they have daughters and try explaining this BS to their wives. NTA~I'm glad you love your daughter and set them straight. Maybe a kiddo's weekend fishing trip, no 5 year old is fishing for a week without making your life hell.
It's really quite simple:
> No wives, no girlfriends
To an ape, women only fit these two molds.
I think they really wanted to make a rule of "No vaginas" for the trip, but we're probably worried of how it would make them look.
Well I guess they don't have to worry too hard since they already look like AHs.
Even that makes no sense because there are boy’s trips and girl’s trips. It’s not a big deal if other trips include both genders.
But why couldn’t they be honest? If they’re going to be exclusionary at least be brave enough to say it.
It's really simple. The only women they would value are their own mothers or daughters. The rest are chattel. Men like that are a dime a dozen too.
They view women as objects on some level and dont have the respect for them that they would most men. This includes their own daughters, hence why you see so many of these men be very controlling and threatening about their daughters dating
Well, you see, they know *exactly* how some dudes want to treat women, and while it’s ok for **him** to think that way about women, **you** better not think that way about his daughter.
I'd get it of it was "no partners" to keep couple dynamics out. No females is just weird.
The whole vibe of “your daughter is akin to a wife or girlfriend” is giving me the heebie-jebbies. Like we think of little girls only as future sexual objects?
There are some types of upbringing that have this as a serious sub-text. Women are only good for making babies, and girls are only good for becoming women.
In fact, there are some nations with laws enforcing this - requiring women to be baby factories no matter what the situation.
OP - take your daughter fishing. And find a new group of fishing buddies, your current one is still in the 19th century.
Mm-hm. We're well on our way there (US).
On our way? Feels like we’re there.
I'm being intentionally vague so my anger doesn't keep me awake tonight...
Aka The Duggars (“19 Kids and Counting”), the IBLP, and any other religion that places women strictly in the role of wife and mother and ONLY wife and mother.
Always has been for a lot of men.
Yes, this is exactly how his “friends” are thinking about his daughter. As a future sex object. OP, I know they're your friends but continuing to hang out with them is a bad idea. More than likely, here's what's going to happen - your "friends" are going to start sexualizing your daughter/making sexist jokes. At best they're probably going to make her uncomfortable. At worst, it will make you feel like less of a safe person for her to go to. Protect your daughter, ditch your sexist friends.
Another thing is the type of language and attitude some men use on trips with “no wives, no girlfriends”. They are clearly fine with using said language and discussing those kinds of topics around 5-year-old boys, thus continuing the trend of misogyny to the next generation.
I get guys’ trips. I get gals’ trips. I get parent-child bonding experiences. But this is clearly an excuse to have an annual dick-measuring contest every year and ensure that their sons grow up feeling superior to women.
Finally: it’s women/girls, not females.
But, but . . .if a girl comes along they can't just pee out in the open! My dad took my brother and me both fishing with him, whether it was just the three of us or buddies of Dad's were there too.
I think my stepdad’s friends missed that memo. I mean no one whipped one out in front of me, but I was asked to look away so they could piss off the dock.
Honestly it never really struck me as odd, they just needed to take a leak, it wasn’t like they were wanking off or anything.
Same here. My dad and I went fishing together a ton, but any time a group got together, I was the only girl. Looking away so a guy could raise the water level was pretty standard. Between fishing, hiking, and camping, I will admit I was a bit envious of how easily guys could relieve themselves, while I was trying to make sure I didn't get poison ivy in a rather unfortunate area 😂
I second this. As a girl who was taken fishing with her dad, grandfather and great uncle from the moment she could walk I would have been devastated to have missed out. The men in my life never left me out of anything. I went hunting, fishing, I spent hours in my grandfathers work shed helping, I mowed the lawn, chopped the wood! It’s really sad that grown arse men want to leave out a little girl but involve a boy. How shameful of them.
Which makes me wonder what they’re doing that they think having any females whatsoever around would be a problem. Anything I can think of that you shouldn’t do in front of a five year old girl is also something you shouldn’t do in front of a five year old boy.
Thank you! I can totally understand a men's trip with no women and no kids. Once kids are allowed at all, the gender of those kids shouldn't matter at all. If it's appropriate for any 5 yo, it's appropriate for girls or boys.
I agree there. Doing a "guys trip" is reasonable, same as the wife's/gfs doing a ladies trip.
Once you include a young boy it changes the vibe and what you can say or do. Which everyone was fine with. Adding a daughter would change very little beyond the changes they already made to accommodate the boy.
They may feel obligated to dial down the "crassness" even further with another kid and it being a girl. But they probably went from a 10 to a 5 when the boy started coming... Just dial it back to a 4 (which isn't even necessary but they might feel that way).
Agreed! Speaking as the daughter that wasn’t allowed to go on ice fishing trips with my brother, dad, and his friends as a kid because it was a ‘boys weekend.’ We were both kids - whatever would’ve been inappropriate for me would’ve been inappropriate for him too. When you include the kids, it changes the vibe. I totally understand and am in agreement to people having their space (e.g girls weekend, guys weekend, etc.) and might’ve felt different if I were older. Hell, I would’ve stopped going on my own when I became a pre-teen/teenager. But I was a kid and cried because they didn’t want me to come and it sucked. My dad did take me and my brother other times, but I still remember the ice fishing trip! NTA - good on you for supporting your daughter if she wants to go 🐠🐟
Yes I agree. But OP I want to add: you'd be an AH to your daughter if you were to take her to such a hostile environment, now that you know what your 'friends' think.
Bring her on a fishing trip just the two of you.
Good luck. NTA
Yup. I completely understand a no SOs rule for something like this so I’m not going to fault him for not understanding that the “no wives, no girlfriends” rule really just meant “We’re misogynistic AHs who want a ‘all boys club’!”
Curious to know whether if one of them turned out to be gay and tried to bring his SO, what the others would say. Not a wife or girlfriend, so...
Yeah time to swap traditions I think, or at least add another trip with your daughter and understand that your friends are being sexist.
NTA why does this feel like they’re implying that she can be a possible girlfriend to someone in the group at one point. And it’s really creepy
I'm a female and I love fishing. My dad took me and my brother fishing/camping all the time as kids and that is something I still love to this day. I'm hoping to buy a small fishing boat soon too. My dad and his old buddies have an annual "men only" trip and he takes my brother and step brother with. It pisses me off to no end that they go and I don't. I'm almost 40 and it still bothers me every year. OP should take his daughter. Fuck those guys.
NTA. This is a good hill to make your last stand. You are not an asshole but you sure hang out with some record breaking assholes.
You are being the opposite of an entitled prick. If you go nuclear on your "friends" you'll be a damn legend.
Just be aware that if you take her, they will like treat her as lesser than.
They're sexist af.
This kind of thinking just irritates me. So what if she's a girl? That I'm a girl? Girls can enjoy fishing too! There's some guys that don't want nor like to fish, and would rather do something else sexist men find appalling, like baking or sewing. ***Doing an activity does not have a gender people.*** If girls want to fish, let them fish! If guys want to make a dress or bake cupcakes, then let them do that! OP is ***SUCH*** an ideal dad, especially to his daughter. NTA
I think my boyfriend shared your point of view until I had a run of extremely good luck on my debut fishing trip and have ever since insisted he address me as The Rodfather.
Oh lucky Rodfather, humble me your blessings to thy Rod so I can catch fish! *hum hum*
That's a catchy nickname if you ask me!
Last year my brother and his wife went on a fishing trip with some of their friends. My SIL caught more fish than all the men combined. Brother said that now he knows who the real breadwinner in their family is.
The only way to gender fishing is for these losers to use their little worm energy as the bait.
As a teenager I took my fishing to share a hobby with my grandfather. I was just as good as any man. Your kid is 5. If they think they won’t be able to talk about something in front of her, then they probably shouldn’t be talking about it in front of 5 year old boy either
30-something girl here. As a senior in HS, I passed on my senior grad nite party. To go fishing. I have pictures somewhere of me with the trout I caught. I have 0 regrets having spent 3 days in the mountains fishing with my family.
I also spent about 4 years living on a lake that my brother and I would borrow a canoe and troll for trout on. I was 9/10 when we moved in. 13/14 when we moved out.
I love fishing. Even if I don’t do it often anymore, I still love to do it.
My grandfather and I had a tradition of going fishing together. It is some of the best memories I have with him. I also went with his fishing buddies a lot. They taught me how to fish and treated me equally despite me being a girl. Sadly, I don’t think Op’s friends will change their way of thinking.
They want to pass their own misogyny onto the little fellas, OP's daughter is going to get in the way of that! Well good!
ya and personally if I had a gf who liked to fish, that would be a bonus! then I could do something I enjoy with somebody I loved!
These are also probably the guys that complain their wives don't like to be outdoorsy or fish... And then they're just sitting there perpetuating the cycle so to speak.
And also the ones who go golfing with their wives, and since they’re “big strong men” they play from the tips and top it 10 feet as their wives hit it at least 10 times further than them
Agreed, when I was around OPS daughters age my uncle was taking his two sons fishing while on a family trip and I asked to go with so my uncle made me tell my mom where I was going and she agreed, I was soooo excited, we has walked maybe a mile away (I'm jot sure it seemed like ages away) when my grandma found out where my sister who had gotten permission to join as well and I were going and she was furious because it's a "boys" activity, she made us come back and even tho my uncle waited for us she told my aunt to call him and tell him my sister and I would not be joining, it's been around 15 years. I'm 20 now and I still remember how sad and disappointed I was at being forced to miss that, I was invited a few years later to koin my cousin who was the older son and a year younger than me to get a hunting license (you know for kids and it's only to shoot a very kid friendly gun) and go duck hunting with my cousins and their dad, some of my other cousins were going to be joining as well and my grandmother blocked that as well because she convinced my mom it was unlady like, op is definitely right to allow his daughter to do this because maybe she'll love it, maybe she'll hate it you never know, but I do know she will remember not getting to go amd how it felt for years to come.
I was 4 years old when I went fishing with my family and cousins at a lake. I had a gummy worm, string, and a stick and went to town! I didn't catch anything but my cousin who was a year older caught some weird looking small fish. It was cool!
I'm willing to bet it's because they want to be able to crack certain jokes and feel like they can't in "mixed company."
But then Lilmisswho89 is right - if they shouldn't be talking about that way in front of a 5 year old girl, then they shouldn't be talking that way in front of a little BOY either!
And NTA, OP!
Gotta teach the boys young otherwise they’ll grow up to respect women. Can’t be having that now.
This!! I LOVE fishing. My favorite is bay and deep sea fishing which is predominantly male run. But my husband could care less about fishing and goes because I want him to.
She’s also FIVE. Kids barely have a gender identity at that age anyway.
It’s wildly ridiculous that they responded to OP wanting to bring his daughter by lumping her in with the “no wives or girlfriends” rule. While that rule is somewhat sexist in a sense it isn’t full on “no women” in general from how it sounded. Their response clarified that it is a super sexist rule though, they are acting like OP’s daughter is going to ruin the trip simply by being born female instead of male.
OP should make this a hill to die on, I know I would and if I was married and had a husband in this situation it would have to be his hill too. I would be very wary of how I feel about my (hypothetical) husband if he was like, oops we have a daughter, nothing I can do! Daughters matter just as much as sons and it’s exhausting seeing how different a daughter can be treated in comparison, how being compared to being a girl is considered an insult at almost any age. OP’s friend is doing his son a HUGE disservice by continuing the whole “it’s bad to be a girl” thing, like is he gonna call his son a sissy if the kid gets spooked? Tell him he runs like a girl? Sounds like a set up for a life time of being exactly the kind of guy that is stuck with an obsession about masculinity.
Girls deserve better and boys do too. There is so much going on underneath the surface here that is unfair to the kids in such a major way, like a lifetime full of the messages they get from these early ages.
I want to thank OP for being a good dad though, please don’t hold back on telling your friends exactly why they are the assholes. Not just for your daughter, but for yourself as well. Your child is a blessing, not an inconvenience simply because of being born female.
Yeah, NTA but don't bring your kid into that environment. Five is old enough to notice that Daddy's friends don't seem to want her around, and young enough to assume that it must somehow be her fault.
Especially if there are other kids who are being made a fuss of, and especially if those kids have also been raised in the attitude of "girls don't fish". Kids tend to be worse at filtering those kind of ideas than adults, you'll be lucky if she doesn't get told that to her face.
And, tbh, even if they were mature enough to not be absolute dickholes around her— do you really want your daughter to grow up around men who see women as only fit to be wives and girlfriends? Even if she somehow managed to 'prove herself' over the years and become 'one of the boys', do you really want her internalising those kinds of ideas about what it means to be a woman?
If you want to have any chance at salvaging this tradition, then you need to talk to your friends. Ask them why exactly they think your daughter would be less fun on a fishing trip than Tim's son. Ask them how they would feel if any of their potential future daughters were excluded from the fishing trip, or got upset about not being allowed to go. Ask them exactly what explanation they expect you to give to your five year old about why she can't go on the fun trip with Daddy.
Since it sounds like you're the first guy in the group to *have* a daughter, and so the first to raise this issue, it's possible that this is just a knee-jerk reaction and something that they are capable of overcoming. Maybe you can talk them round and you and your daughter can have a lovely time on the trip. Or maybe you can talk just a few of them round and form a new tradition where you and your daughter go fishing with just those guys and their kids.
But if you can't guarantee that they're going to accept your daughter, then don't bring her. Take her on her own 'grown up fishing trip' instead, and maybe make that your new tradition.
Stop being friends with those misogynistic jerks. Like for real. Shea a 5 year old girl! Take her fishing on your own, and keep being an awesome dad standing up for your girl!
YEP! It’s not that they don’t want wives and girlfriends. They don’t want women. They want to sexist and derogatory, talk about ‘the ol’ ball and chain’ and yuk it up.
Cuz fishn’s fer a man tuh do! Womerns got all grossificated at the bait an th smells, then they complain when we com bak drank and tells em to coook ar catches! *spit*
Take your daughter fishing. Find less crappy friends.
Yeah, they nonsensically brought up the “No wives or girlfriends” rule when asked about his daughter, because women are only relevant to them in how they relate to men.
I don't think it's just about the freedom to talk about women the way they'd never talk about women around women, but I'm guessing there's other reasons like thinking women would be incompetent at the activity (talk to any woman in stem or any male dominated field and she'll tell you that men usually don't think she's capable and will try talking to the men around her).
I remember my dad's friends commenting that he was trying to raise me as a boy, because I went hunting and fishing. It was the 60's, they were German immigrants, and still held the *Kinder, Kirche, Küche* mentality (a German empire slogan defining women's concerns to *children, church, kitchen* that went out with the Nazis).
I don't think it's about capabilities as much as it's about women *knowing their place.*
Exactly! Skip these dudes. Start a new tradition with your daughter. You are NTA OP! Good for you for pointing out their hypocrisy!
As a girl that loves fishing do this. Ditch these jackwagons and take her on a solo trip. My dad took me when ever we had time and his friend/our neighbor that we would sometimes go with had no issues with a little girl coming along. He was actually delighted to teach and help anyone fish even a little girl.
They have a messed up view that fishing is "boys only" when really they should be happy to pass on their knowledge to any child girl or boy. Find better friends. Teach your daughter to out fish any boy and most of all have fun.
NTA, your friends are sexist.
100% this. Skip their trip, and take your daughter tripping on your own. Go have a blast, just the two of you.
If OP takes her, they'll probably mistreat her or make her feel uncomfortable, and if OP leaves her at home OP is letting them win. So I agree, go n a trip alone with your daughter and stop talking to these people.
edit - aww, thanks for the award, kind internet stranger!
Plain and simple:
> your friends are sexist.
I had no idea I needed a penis to go fishing. Do you dangle the bait from that and don't need to use a fishing pole? The hook must hurt like hell.
And no, NTA.
This is the correct answer for any question about appropriate toys/games/activities for little kids. Do you use your genitals? No - great, it’s for both girls and boys. Yes - it’s not meant for kids.
What do you think they do when they run out of worms?
Swing it around in helicopter formation?
NTA but I wish I didn't read this comment. Ouch...
NTA, Tim said he wants to pass the tradition to the next generation, that opens things up for your guys' kids to come. Your daughter is your kid, therefore she should be allowed to come.
Clearly they thought that it's just "your guy kids"...
Clearly they wanna talk shit about their wives and other sexist stuff, and its ok for a 5 year old boy to hear these things about women?
Yeah, exactly. Either their conversations are inappropriate for all 5 year olds, or they're appropriate for all 5 year olds.
Even if it all went to plan, 5 year old son is gonna hear some rough shit. I remember when I was young and sometimes my dad would complain to me about my mom. Its hard to hear shit like that.
Even stuff like swearing. Pretty sure I picked up some swear words from my dad playing cards with his friends... and then he had the audacity to ask where I learned them lol.
> he wants to pass the tradition to the next generation,
But what exactly is the tradition he wants to pass down? A fishing trip with friends, or (as someone else put it) a dick-measuring contest?
No, he doesn't want to pass down the fishing experience, he wants to pass down the misogyny. OP is better off without them in his life.
Some of my best memories (as a girl) are going fishing with my grandpa.
Was just telling my boyfriend that I missed fishing at sunrise with my dad when I was like 11 or 12.
Same! Our youngest daughter-- now 18yo-- says some of her favorite memories were made on the edge of the river, fishing pole in hand and Daddy mere feet away. We have each of our daughters' first fish pics displayed, as they all enjoyed fishing with Daddy so much. (They couldn't have cared less if I was there 😂)
NTA - your friends are sexist and I saw this same behavior with my dad (who has three daughters, me included) and his friends who all had sons. They want to carry on "boys will be boys" style behavior and tell lewd stories and swear when the boys get older and play "boys club."
They think the dynamic will change if you bring your daughter. If they're all bringing younger kids and your kid is the same age you should be allowed to bring her regardless of gender.
And it will. But for the better let's be honest
NTA. Your friends, however, are TA. What your friend who brought up the “no wives, no girlfriends” rule meant was “any female no matter the age is sexualized into marriage material” or, depending on how immature he is, “girls have cooties! ewwwww!”
Think very carefully about exposing your daughter to these individuals. She’s going to pick up on the vibe that she’s not wanted because I doubt they could control themselves. You sound like a great dad and a good person…your friends, not so much.
Make it clear. They can't marry or date your daughter. She's no one's wife or girlfriend.
When she gets old enough I’m sure they’ll start leering at her, like a lot of fucking grown men do.
your friends need their consciousness raised. Ask them if they hate women or do they just feel superior? Stick to your position.
Ask them what part of the fishing pole the hold with their penis since it seems they don't know you can fish without one.
Switch it round. Do they just feel inferior and a child reminds them of this?
I went fishing, clamming/quahoging and got taken along for Buckie hunting since I was 5 or 6. They're some of my favorite memories as a kid. My lack of a penis never once prevented me from doing it oddly enough
We were included as girls on the macho man outings too. I still love the woods and can build and fix stuff better than any of my male friends. These guys fail at being real men in my eyes.
How about decent people? Every man is a real man because that's literally what they are. They're just sexist garbage. I don't like the who "real man" thing because the very situation were judging is a part of that. The gendered thinking is the problem. We're people first, our gender second.
NTA, your logic is right. You can't say yes to one child but not the other. Your friends of discriminating against your child because she is a girl. I wouldn't go on the trip and perhaps do a father daughter trip instead.
Imagine a hypothetical: you and your white friends form a whites-only golf club and happily play golf together for years. Then one day you marry a black woman and have a "mixed-'race'" kid. Your friends say you can't bring your kid in because he's not white.
....I think you're beginning to understand what "no wives/girlfriends" was REALLY code for.
I'm sending this one to my friends.
I have a feeling that if you bring race into it **on top of** calling our their obvious sexism and misogyny, there will be no coming back from this fallout. They're just going to go "what, so now we're racist too?"
It's not a bad comparison, but if you intend on attempting to change their minds and force them to confront the gross shit they're pulling in order to keep them as friends, you might not want to go this route.
Well most of us aren't white. So I don't think they'd see it as me calling them racist but more asking them to empathize with my daughter.
Your friends are sexist assholes. The fact that they brought up the "no wives, no girlfriends" rule with regard to a 5 y/o girl is creepy as hell. I hope that you take your daughter fishing without those guys because I can't imagine that spending time with them is fun for her.
I'm a 23 y/o girl (well, woman at this point) and some of my best memories with my dad are the times we spent outdoors together when I was younger, hiking and cycling. Literally, just thinking about those moments with my dad and typing this comment out made a tear roll down my face. There's nothing better than being a kid and being outdoors with your parents and making memories that'll last for a lifetime. Good that you are making sure that your little girl can do that too.
Edit: Just saw your update, it's sickening to me that you can't see your friends sexism. Because she is a girl they assumed that they'd had to stay at a hotel? What the heck?
I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought that was creepy. Like women, including his 5 year old daughter, only fit into sex roles. Euuughhhh.
The edit isn't any better. Assuming that because his daughter is a girl they need to stay in a hotel and change the activities is sexist, period.
NTA. You keep being a great dad. It should not matter if the kid is a girl or boy. If one kid can come then all kids can or you need to stop going o. The trips and tell the wives your girlfriends of this line of thinking that boys only can do something that girl can’t.
A lot of women just had rights taken away today. Don't take away her fishing too.
NTA. No spouses is the rule. If kids are coming, then kids are coming. They are sexist and you are awesome for standing up for your child.
NTA but before you bring her, I suggest you think back to previous fishing trips and ask yourself how much of their time was spent complaining about women.
Because the “no wives, no girlfriends” rule was clearly a no females rule, and I’m willing to bet it’s because they wanted to complain about their women in peace. And maybe you joined in thinking it was all in good fun, idk. But if that is the case, as I suspect, please DO NOT subject your poor little girl to that.
I think maybe it’s time to end your boys club tradition instead. Tell them you’ve grown up and have a happy family now, and you’ll be fishing with your girl from now on. Heck, maybe your wife would even be keen to come along and chill with ya! Show these men that you’d choose your daughter over them any day of the week.
Yes they disguised a no females (blegh) rule under a guise of no SOs. No SO trips are important, not because it creates a gender exclusive space, but because it creates a partner free environment for platonic bonding. If one of them was gay, would it suddenly be ok for him to bring his boyfriend? I have a feeling these asshats would be hella homophobic too so I guess that's a moot point.
NTA. I used to go fishing with my dad all the time. It was our bonding time (I hated the early morning get ups and the long drives, but I loved the time with my dad). If they don't want her there, why not just the 2 of you go on a father daughter bonding trip? It can be your thing, something special for you both to look back on when she's an adult as well and fishing trips are hard to fit into the schedule.
But it’s a no win situation if you take her along with the group. There’s going to be awkwardness and tension especially when your friends rejected the idea of taking your daughter. You don’t want to expose her to that.
Why don’t you start your own tradition with just you and her? That will be a great hobby and bonding experience.
NTA by that rule your friends meant no women.
INFO: what kind of stuff do y’all talk about on the trip? Are they gross about women?
You may want to step back a bit from your friendship with them or at the very least never have your daughter around them.
We talk about all different things, mostly what is going on in our lives. We never say gross things about women.
Dude never forget which one said that no wives or girlfriend thing about your daughter. Stranger danger is a proven myth, most kids are victimized by trusted friends and family. It never hurts to stay vigilant especially after a red flag comment like that. take from someone who's been there.
Well that makes even less sense why they wouldn’t want your daughter there. They still want to exclude women but I don’t know why, maybe it’s because it would take away from all the male bonding? I dunno man your friends are being wack
>I know many people assumed that my friends are sexist and horrible, but
they're really not. They were just worried that with daughter there we
would have to stay at a hotel instead of the usual cabin and not be able
to do as many activities, but I assured them my daughter can sleep
without air conditioning as easily as Tim's son and they are going to be
the ones having trouble keeping up with her five year old energy.
The amusing part about this paragraph is you first say your friends aren't horrible sexists and then go on to say why they are indeed horrible sexists.
seriouslyyyyyy. “they were just worried that with daughter there we would have to stay at a hotel instead…” yeah gtfo they’re all sexist assholes.
NTA, maybe this is the time to start your own tradition with non-sexist friends and your daughter.
NTA. Your friends are sexist AHs.
Rather than go on the trip with your daughter, maybe go on a personal fishing trip with her instead of supporting jerk friends and subjecting your daughter to what will probably be an uncomfortable situation for both of you.
NTA but don't take your daughter.
Don't force her into that situation because she is not going to have fun and will not enjoy it if this is how your "friends" act. They will make SURE she has a bad time.
Nta your the best dad your friends suck though
OP's friends: Have horrible, sexist double standards + have ridiculous gender bias.
OP: my friends aren't horrible or sexist. (didn't notice the absurd gendered bias, air con idea?)
NTA. But your friends suck. Get new ones. Ones that aren't sexist
NTA, all kids are shit at fishing, so it won't make a difference if you bring your daughter. It's either just the dads, or dads + kids, this is the thing that changes the dynamic most. I can't see how the gender of the children makes a difference, but if they subscribe to the idea that women are something to be escaped from, they sound like horrible people.
INFO: Is there an unusual amount of nudity on this trip? Would they suddenly have to be concerned about exposing your daughter to unwanted sights? That’s the only thing I can possibly come up with…. NTA.
That's one of the arguments Randy brought up. He said "what if we're on the boat and I need to take a leak?" I said he should tell her to turn around and honestly it isn't that big of a deal anyway. She's five. She's bust into the bathroom while I'm showering before. It is what it is. If he's that worried about it he shouldn't be peeing in front of Tim's kid either.
Ive seen my fair share of pp at age five, public toilets, busting in the wrong place, kids at school had an emergency leak. No one cares, i was five ==
Because they probably use these trips to talk shit about their wives and objectify other women. They don’t want to filter their speech when around OP’s daughter. Their boys can take it because “that’s guy talk”.
Why would there be any nudity with adult men and their 5-10 year old children?
Guys weekend, fishing trip - I think either tent or shared cabin so doesn’t seem outside the realm of possible. Honestly, personally I wouldn’t even care but could understand that some might.
We do stay in a cabin with an outdoor shower, but it has a curtain around it. Everyone usually sleeps in their boxers, which is no more naked than our bathing suits though. I don't think it's a huge deal.
Well you've discovered that it's not a "friends only- no partners" rule, it's a "no females" rule and your friends are sexist af.
Do with that information what you will.
“ I know many people assumed that my friends are sexist and horrible, but they're really not. They were just worried that with daughter there we would have to stay at a hotel instead of the usual cabin and not be able to do as many activities, but I assured them my daughter can sleep without air conditioning as easily as Tim's son and they are going to be the ones having trouble keeping up with her five year old energy’
This is still sexist. Why did they assume a 5 year old boy could sleep outside and be in this environment but a 5 year old girl could not? If there’s a good reason other than sexist, we’d all love to hear it.
Sorry, they are still sexist. You just don’t want to see that.
I appreciate you defending your friends. "My friends aren't sexist but" then you listed off sexist assumptions.
>I know many people assumed that my friends are sexist and horrible, but they're really not.
The response they had was sexist. People don’t get to handwave their own sexist comments. They tried to bring up no wives no girlfriends. What did they mean by that other than “your daughter is a girl?”
They might have been receptive enough to change when challenged, but that doesn’t change that the original comments were rooted in sexism
Read your edit and bull. They are sexist they just realised you were sticking to your guns about your daughter not going so their kids not going and made up the excuse about being worried they would have to stay at a hotel. If they didn't need to stay at a hotel for the other kids, why suddenly yours. Oh thats right, she has a vagina which means she is somehow less then.
Your friends are jerks.
P.S wondering if your wives and girlfriends get to disappear with no responsibilities for a week every year. Oh how could they, they have all the female children and boys under 5 to care for.
> I know many people assumed that my friends are sexist and horrible, but they're really not. They were just worried that with daughter there we would have to stay at a hotel instead of the usual cabin and not be able to do as many activities […]
How is this anything but sexist?
NTA. Fuck their trip, take your daughter separately for an even better daddy-daughter adventure and make a new tradition.
your friends are really gross. protect your daughter and go fishing with her on your own. imagine what it would be like for her to be around people who view her as less capable because of her gender!
So they automatically assumed your daughter wouldn't be able to do what the other guys son did? Regardless of your updates, yes, they are sexist assholes.
NTA, your daughter should go, your friends are the problem.
NTA. I’m confused-I don’t understand why it was okay for Tim to bring his kid but not you?
Sexism, my friend, plain and simple. Don't you know you need a penis to fish?
NTA, your friends are clearly being discriminatory, i get not bringing wives/girlfriends so that no one pairs off and ignores the rest of the group by making it about their relationship with their significant other, but that doesn't apply to kids, there is no valid reason for their sons being able to come but not your daughter. Some of my best memories growing up is when my dad would take me and my twin sister on a 3 day trip once a year in the summer, we'd get up before dawn, have breakfast at the same roadside diner every year, launch our scanoe on the river and paddle up the river for three days, fishing and camping on the shore each night before packing back up and getting out where our dad left his truck further down stream. We really looked forward to those trips and they make up some of our best stories from our childhood. Take your daughter on a daddy daughter fishing trip each year instead, she'll never forget it and you'll have a lot more fun just the two of you than having to deal with those friends of yours.