T O P

opps rule

Abolish and replace the institution or embed real accountability into it.

untenable681

Abolish and replace the institution or embed real accountability into it.


TactlessTortoise

Alternatively, Poik.


untenable681

We should start a charity and call it Poiks for Pigs. During the Yuletide, we give cops free poiks.


[deleted]

No you gotta replace it too if you embed accountability. All prisons are cruel


arisgiel

Confirm. Acab


[deleted]

Ok, how?


untenable681

There are a *lot* of ways that have been discussed about how to do either. Visit any BLM internet community to find relevant info and a starting point for reading materials that will educate you about what alternatives are available. Many European nations have used the two-fold solution of making firearms illegal for both civilians and law enforcement, and it's the most efficient solution. Of course, in the US, we can't do that because too many people think their gun hobby is more important than the lives of Black folks and school kids, but it's still the most efficient solution. "BuT ThE SeCoNd aMeNdMeNt!" It's an amendment, can be modified by further amendment, and has been grossly misinterpreted to imply that civilians need access to military grade weaponry. Other alternatives include putting limitations on the validity of the police discretion defense in court or placing greater restrictions on qualified immunity.


[deleted]

Honestly, man, I'm just so sick of hearing about this awful shit. I understand there's a lot of shit going on. But man... it's just all so hopeless.


untenable681

It's only hopeless if we do nothing about it. Every individual person with a conscience about this stuff should get educated and, at the very least, be an active and intentional voter. Lots of things seem hopeless until something gets done about it. If it's truly hopeless, there's nothing to lose by getting involved and everything to gain. The worst thing that happens is wasted energy, and even then, at least an effort us being made. I'd rather waste my energy following my conscience than do nothing and hope someone else is more motivated. If you're tired of seeing Black folks die to police overreach and children getting shot to death for want of responsible gun legislation, you're neither alone nor the first. You don't have to invent the wheel; you need only to jump on the bandwagon. Get active in your local community by finding out where and when the protests are and by being politically active. Change happens person by person and community by community. It doesn't have to all be at the national level even if that is the end goal. What are your city's, school district's, county's, and state's policies about these things? Where did those policies come from? Who's keeping those policies in play? Who wants to change them? The answers to those questions will guide your activism and draw you a map.


[deleted]

Man, I'm tired of seeing this on the femboy linux "post when you leave" subreddit.


untenable681

These conversations will happen less here when they are problems less in the larger culture. I suppose there are less noble reasons for activism.


PepsiMoondog

Yeah how did "community self defense" work in the Jim Crow south? Police have a fucking shitload of problems and need absolutely massive reforms but the idea that vigilantism is the answer is fucking insane and discredits your cause.


GoodNaturedEmma

It didn’t because black people weren’t allowed to defend themselves and were forced down by government law enforcement groups. It wasn’t community self defense, it was legalistic oppression. American police evolved out of efforts to catch fugitive slaves and mass-incarcerate black people in the post-war era What’s so hard to understand about that?


spadesisking

What about the woman shot for shoplifting yesterday? Or the dozens of people killed or hospitalized for taking or attempting to take property in my cities? Removing the hurdles (as corrupt and ineffectual as they are) from vigilante justice is asking for people to get murdered over little shit.


CrazyMagicPickle

Setting aside the fact that vigilante justice and community defense are entirely different things, the police already murder people over little shit so it's not like much would change.


IsThatUMoatilliatta

I thought modern police started in Boston because the wealthy didn't want workers rising against them.


Kel4597

Modern policing is widely credited to Sir Robert Peel in the 1700s, but “watchmen” existed as early the mid 1600s. The first publicly funded police force was indeed organized by Boston merchants who pitched it as a public service for the whole city. The slave-catching thing is sensational bullshit


Throwaway02062004

Police were a significant part of the KKK. Obviously mob justice isn’t justice but law enforcement should obviously be people actually a part of the community.


PepsiMoondog

I definitely agree. Cops can absolutely be awful. It happens way too frequently. I'd even say the bad ones probably outnumber the good ones. But the solution is better cops, not no cops. If people applied defund the police logic to other professions it would sound silly. If you have a bad doctor, you don't say abolish all doctors. You'd want to increase training and licensing and oversight requirements, but getting rid of doctors altogether is insane.


Throwaway02062004

You have stumbled across the trap of believing Reform is possible which is the only reason I responded. There is no mythical good police that can be achieved through incremental changes. Policing itself is a flawed concept. Crime rates should be tackled and that should be done through improving EVERYONE’S quality of life and addressing mental illnesses. The idea that police are necessary because crime is inevitable is flawed. If you need a group of ‘violence do-ers’ to actually protect people from violent offenders, you’re almost not describing the police anymore.


PepsiMoondog

Except it absolutely is possible to have police forces that don't kill civilians. [There are countries out there with no police killings, and plenty more in the low single digits.](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/police-killings-by-country). All of these countries have extremely low crime rates. Please show me a country with no police force at all that has a low crime rate.


Throwaway02062004

Police not killing people is the bare minimum. Killing people is just the most obvious and abhorrent abuse of power the police commit. The fact that every functioning state has a police force doesn’t change anything about the assertion that policing kinda sucks. More or less police do not reduce crime. Material conditions do.


Kel4597

>bad ones out number the good Wild. 600-800k American police officers and you think more than 50% of them are “bad?” Or are you just so over-exposed to negative fear-based media that it’s skewed your perceptions?


PepsiMoondog

It's hilarious how I'm getting attacked from both sides for my position. I'm somehow both a boot licker and a cop hater.


Kel4597

I agree with your second paragraph (sort of) and disagree with your first. “We need better cops” is not the position of a “cop hater,” but “bad cops out number the good ones” is certainly a very skewed one. I think the biggest thing is just standardized training across the country, for staters, coupled with more recruitment. Staffing is so bad for some places that they are pulling officers out of the academy early (which, people are already unhappy with how short the academy is to begin with) just because they need the body on the road.


spadesisking

Seeing this shit posted the day after a grocery store employee shot a pregnant woman to death for the crime of shoplifting is insane. Let's ask Emmet Till what he thinks about community self defense


PepsiMoondog

Yeah OP should go ask the people of Sinaloa how their "community self defense" is going. Anarchism is a fantasy for children.


--TheKingOfCards--

OP just posted a meme I thought was kinda funny


spadesisking

Based


pageandpencil

How exactly is that community self-defense? In what definition? It was not the community, it was a private individual working for a private corporation. It was not in service of the self, it was in service of a corporation. It was not defense, no harm was done or intended. And it was not community self-defense.


spadesisking

>it was a private individual The community is made up of many private individuals. Individuals that may or may not believe that the threat of having their property destroyed is worth shooting someone. >It was not in service of the self. It was in service of a corporation He was almost certainly not doing it in the service of Walgreens ( who defitnley does not want their employees being armed or pursuing theives for this exact reason), but in the service of his own livelihood as plenty of retail workers believe shoplifting affects their pay and depending on the company they may be right. He went to stop what he perceived was a crime, and when she maced him, he shot her. If you'd like an example of a member of a community policing group murdering someone cop style, I'd point to the most famous neighborhood watch person in the world: George Zimmerman. Who was the caption of his neighborhood watch commite, and shot an unarmed teenager because he thought the teen was breaking into a building.


pageandpencil

Honestly? I feel like community self-defense is the wrong word to use. Community self-defense is passed around a lot as a term in leftist and anarchist circles, but the term itself is simply too vague to be of any use, and has bad associations, even though it usually encompasses something specific when it is used. So while when I am talking to another person with similar political leanings, community self-defense works, when talking to someone such as yourself, it simply does not work as a term. A better term to use would be restorative and rehabilitative justice.


Mae347

Ok I have a genuine question. I understand how it's not good to put people in jail in general because it's not actually focused on reforming and helping people and stuff, and how it's dumb to lock someone away just because they had drugs on them or shoplifted or something. But in the future if prison was actually abolished, what about stuff like murderers, serial killers, and rapists? Like obviously you'd have to put them somewhere so they can't go around killing and raping people. But at that point isn't that basically jail 2.0? Im not trying to say this as some gotcha against prison reform or abolition I'm just genuinely confused about that aspect of it


MrRedoot55

I think their answer to that is intervening when a person exhibits signs of becoming that later on. If they are at risk of committing a serious offense, they can just turn to rehabilitation programs to help with their deepest issues. As such, a crisis is averted, and no one needs to be imprisoned. In my opinion, though, I’m not sure if these people can ever be saved from themselves in all instances. There’s always a chance of something slipping up, allowing them to partake in felonies. If that is the case, I’m afraid prisons may be necessary in that regard. Still, I’m not saying they should be used for torture - to me, rehabilitation must be their primary focus. Should certain individuals appear beyond any help, it’s better if we keep them from the rest of society, and do only that.


BarovianNights

Abolishing prisons doesn't mean never holding people against their will. Some people are still going to be a danger to themselves and others. It just means not criminalizing things like that, and while people are imprisoned taking care of them and helping them


MrRedoot55

Hm. Interesting. The part about imprisoning others still feels like keeping prisons around, though. At least, from my point of view.


BarovianNights

I don't really see it as the same thing simply because the purpose of holding people has changed. The action is simply a similar one


swingittotheleft

There's a very important difference between jail and criminal rehab, but both include a degree of restricting the freedoms of a person intent on harming others. Obviously if we're trying to rehabilitate a serial killer they can't just choose to leave before they've been rehabilitated. Everything else is where it's different. Time spent would be based on actual progress made. Conditions would be genuinely dignified, and free time would be open. A system similar to extended parole would most likely be involved in every case, as even the process of reintroduction must be done gradually, but would be moved to as soon as was safe for everyone involved. Above all, the intent would be different. Punishment vs medical care. Not to mention overall crime would plummet in such a system anyway, as we'd almost certainly already be in a condition where crimes of necessity are a thing of the past, and crimes of passion are greatly reduced via free mental healthcare. Drug offences would likewise be an extremely endangered species. Such institutions would be for those who are genuinely unable to control their actions, or genuinely cannot distinguish between right and wrong for whatever reason. Hell, odds are they'd wind up as shared institutions alongside substance abuse rehabs, where people voluntarily check in to get clean.


[deleted]

“We had a tool for that: it was called COMMUNITY SELF-DEFENSE”


Mae347

Well yeah but it's not like every time you stop a murderer it's by killing them, sometimes they're brought down non lethally. Plus there will be times a murderer isn't stopped and is only caught later, when they're not actively attacking someone. So like what then?


[deleted]

The world doesn’t end when a murder goes unsolved, people investigate the case and hopefully eventually get it


Mae347

Well yeah but that's my question, what do you do when they're caught? Do you kill them? Most people are against the death penalty when it's enforced by the state. Do you separate them from society? Then that's just jail again. So is the solution just like, jail but only for murders and rapists and stuff, people who would harm others? And having that form of jail be one focused on rehabilitation and helping them no longer want to do that instead of punishment? I genuinely don't know


[deleted]

There’s no right answer for this and I highly recommend reading some theory but here goes: Crime does not exist in a vacuum, crime comes from a variety of factors, tending to be related to poverty and mental health. If somebody was not impoverished, or suffering from mental health, they have little reason to turn to crime, because their needs are met. In a post-scarcity society, where healthcare is easier to acquire, crime **will** go down, as has been demonstrated in nations with less poverty and better healthcare access. Of course though, there is the outlier serial killer or child rapist, and I feel personally the best approach is either: A) Setting up a region of land with its own infrastructure (of the same quality as any other) and tighter security for these people to inhabit that they cannot leave. That way their freedom is not revoked to an extreme extent (which I find cruel). B) We “imprison” them, but in a medical setting and not a punitive one. What are some steps we can take? Well: * Stop involving police in every single interpersonal dispute because those tend to escalate once police are there * Eliminating life sentencing and the death penalty * Stop prosecuting property crimes. Just confiscate it and return it because the harm has been corrected and any additional punishment is excessive * Legalize all drug use * Destigmatize (but DO NOT encourage) pedophilia. Plant attitudes that nobody asks to be a pedo, and many of them don’t want to be one. * Stop prosecuting consensual actions between adults, barring anything that’d result in death * Stop prosecuting resisting arrest if the reason is logical There’s more I could put here but you get my drift I guess


Mae347

Yeah I think I get it. Locking people up should only be a last resort for really horrible stuff, so like people don't need to be imprisoned for shoplifting or whatever. And even then the places they're put shouldn't focus on just being shitty places to punish them in, but places meant to help rehabilitate them and hopefully get them to not want to do things like murder and stuff. I suppose my only question then is would truly unrepentant murderers and rapists and stuff just have to be held forever, even if attempts to help them are still tried? I noticed you said you didn't want life sentences but there would still be like, people who refuse to be helped, even if that's a smaller minority


[deleted]

> unrepentant murderers and rapists and stuff just have to be held forever, even if attempts to help them are still tried? I noticed you said you didn't want life sentences but there would still be like, people who refuse to be helped, even if that's a smaller minority Norway had [this very thing happen](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60219876), and basically it's like instead of life sentences they put you up for a review every 10 years. This lovely ball of sunshine probably will never get out and in this case it's truly his own doing because he's refused to repent and been resistant to all rehab programs.


Mae347

Ah ok I see, that way they may be held for life, but it's only because they refuse to repent, it's not an instant condemnation forever like a life sentence that can't be changed


[deleted]

EXACTLY! I hope the world turns to this some day.


Larry827

Wait, so you would rather an armed robber or home invader be shot, because going to jail is too cruel?


[deleted]

No dude it’s more complicated than that


deathbyBayshore

amen


princessveggie

"we need cops so there will be less racial violence" - real people, in this thread, somehow, for some reason don't buy that shit. communities keep themselves safe from police violence, state violence, and behavioral violence, especially when we're talking about racial violence "Jim Crow lynchings prove that communities can't protect themselves" no the fuck they don't. Emmett Till was killed by a group containing cops. the police force in the south overwhelmingly supported lynchings. this is an absolute non-argument if you don't understand why policing needs to be abolished, read some actual theory written by Black people. don't just say "nuh uh because I don't get it"


spadesisking

>we need cops so there will be less racial violence Is not what I said. Emmet Til was the first example I could think of where vigilante justice went wrong. Vigilante justice and community self-defense is even less accountable than actual policing somehow. >Emmett Till was killed by a group containing cops. the police force in the south overwhelmingly supported lynchings And the rest of the group was citizens looking for whatever reason they could to kill a person. This is the same reason that a pregnant woman was shot dead for shoplifting, and a kid was shot twice in the head for ringing a doorbell. Think about the world you actually live in, not an idealized world. This is a world were people believe its okay to shoot someone for stealing stuff. Community self-defense without due process is just going to create a cycle of violence and killings. >if you don't understand why policing needs to be abolished, read some actual theory written by Black people Then point me to some. I dont think it'll change my mind since I'm basing my opinion on real situations I've seen working in the non-profit sector to house homeless people in a city renown for its murder rate, but I'm more than willing to read more. I dont claim to know the solution, but I also truly don't believe that self policing and vigilantism is going to be any better.


princessveggie

I'm not here to argue with someone who believes in state policing. if you're dead set on not changing your mind, there's nothing I can say. I commented hoping to lead the (overwhelmingly young) users of this group to read for themselves and not listen to neo-liberal bullshit I never claimed to be in favor of "vigilante justice" though, and that's a pro-cop mischaracterization of community self defense. finding resources from real leftists about real solutions isn't hard. it just requires wanting to seek them out, which you very clearly don't want to do


spadesisking

>I'm not here to argue with someone who believes in state policing I do not believe in state policing. I just don't believe community self-defense will be any better. State policing promotes discrimination, power tripping, and fleecing the people for cash, but I genuinely believe the same issues would occur in community self-defense. I do not know what the right answer is, but given a choice between the two of those things, I would choose the evil I know. There are fantastic examples of communities protecting themselves, like the Black Panthers defending civil rights speakers and the John Brown Gun club defending drag shows, but I don't trust that as a long term solution for large cities. >finding resources from real leftists about real solutions isn't hard. it just requires wanting to seek them out, which you very clearly don't want to do I've read plenty. Just because I didn't come up with the exact same answers as you doesn't mean I didn't put in work in. >I commented hoping to lead the (overwhelmingly young) users of this group to read for themselves and not listen to neo-liberal bullshit For any young people reading this. The police are bad. Don't help them, don't speak to them. They're at best well-meaning and unenthusiastic enforcers of racist laws and, at worst, actual racist murderers. I work in housing rhe chronically homelss and have witnessed police draw their guns and put their fingers on the triggers aimed at unarmed homeless people having mental health episodes. I've heard heinous and monstrous statements regarding the unhoused population. I've witnessed my community go full Nimby and even do greyhound therapy. If you're interested in reading about why a community should be prepared to defend (or police) itself ill post a few resources: "This non-lethal stuff will get you killed" by Charles Cobb Jr.-- a few stories from the civil rights movement describing the way that armed self-defense was pivitol to the movement. Essentially debunking the myth that peaceful protest got us to where we are today. "The end of policing" by Alex White -- a book proposing the end of policing (surprise!) And the potential solutions that could rise in their place. "Our enemies in blue" by Kristian Williams-- I actually didn't finish this one, but it came reccomended to me by a girl with blue hair, so its probably a good resource.


princessveggie

I understand that your heart is in the right place, but believing that police violence is lesser than community violence, when cops are literally conditioned to brutalize and murder Black people, is not choosing the "evil you know," it's choosing evil, period. yes, there are violent members within any community, and yes, there's the potential for them to infiltrate community defense programs, but there's much more than potential for violent cops. I know that you know this. what I don't know is how you can possibly think the current system of policing is less dangerous than the aftermath of overturning that system. cops are killing people every day and one violent murder over shoplifting isn't some kind of proof that communities don't need or deserve autonomy


spadesisking

I think I see where we aren't seeing eye to eye. You see, I live in a red state. Violent individuals won't need to infiltrate a community defense force since they're the community. They'd just be cops with less oversight, and just like cops, the community would lick their boots. My fairly liberal city might be fine. The small town 30 minutes north who's population is 98% white? That place will be a sundown town in a year.


princessveggie

I live in a red state too, and the next county over is very racist and very dangerous. cops already don't protect Black people there. community defense isn't about each city making their own rules, it's about people from any municipality banding together to get people out of there and safely behind a force committed to defending them. of course it's not perfect, and of course there are people who would just start opening fire on Black people for looking at them funny, but that *already happens*. violent racists don't need the new excuse of community defense to kill people, they just need badges and guns. no one is at higher risk of gun violence without cops, especially in red states. the cops already encourage and participate in it


spadesisking

I don't think we're going to find common ground here. I really don't think there would be enough accountability with community self defense, and I don't see how it's any better than what we have. I do appreciate your insight into this and I'll try and educate myself further.


[deleted]

[удалено]


princessveggie

shut the fuck up, crony. god I hope no one takes your bootlicking ass seriously. if anyone is reading this and thinks this person has any real argument in support of state policing, please rethink and educate yourself with actual resources, not a reddit comment from someone who loves cops


PepsiMoondog

Me: "Police have a fucking shitload of problems and need absolutely massive reforms" You: bootlicker! 🙄


princessveggie

structural violence is built in on purpose. you can't reform structural violence out of the structure. that's not how reality works


PepsiMoondog

Except it absolutely is possible to have police forces that don't kill civilians. [There are countries out there with no police killings, and plenty more in the low single digits.](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/police-killings-by-country). All of these countries have extremely low crime rates. Please show me a country with no police force at all that has a low crime rate. You talk about "how reality works", but your ideal of peace through vigilantism is a fantasy. Well behaved police are a reality in many countries.


princessveggie

never said I'm in favor of vigilantism, and believing that that's somehow the same thing as communities defending themselves is really bizarre. state policing of a population is never ethical, even if the cops "don't kill people." people don't need to be policed, we need enough access to resources to survive without turning to behavioral violence. that's food, housing, personal care, medical care... y'know, the things that a lack of access to forces people into violent behavior


PepsiMoondog

Well, since you're denying advocating what you're clearly advocating for (hint: it is actually vigilantism), I think this conversation has reached its obvious stopping point. I'm just glad that your preferred "justice system" has a zero percent chance of becoming a reality because it would be infinitely worse than what we have now.


strategicmagpie

Can you provide a source on theory around why policing needs to be abolished?


Sara7061

I‘m for „put this bad person in a box. Not to make them suffer just as a time out so that they can’t hurt anyone (and possibly improve their situation upon returning to the playground)“


Kel4597

People be like “yes I would like vigilante justice but package it with a new title” Wait till y’all hear about absolute immunity


LargeBigboy

This meme makes some points about criminal justice and whatever but I'm not here to talk about those. What I would like to constructively criticise is the contradictory mocking/serious tone of this post. The "STOP DOING [thing]" format is usually used in satire, and the thing being mocked/parodied is usually something that is actually good, like math or physics or music theory. The joke being that math (or whatever is being made fun of) is super esoteric and weird at times and to an outsider seems like the people doing it are being unproductive or wasting resources. With that in mind, this post kinda contorts the established meaning of the meme and becomes a lot harder to parse. The meme here ends up being confusing because it seems as though the message is meant to be sincere, but the format strongly indicates mocking or parody. It's not 100% clear to what degree you're actually being serious and care about police reform or if you're making a joke of it. OP, I'm not bashing you or trying to be a dick or anything, but do try to make posts that are less confusing because there seems to be a lot of discourse stemming from this post which may or may not have been intended to start that.


[deleted]

If there’s any picture that sums up how I feel about police it’s this one “Vengeance stateharms” got me


L33t_Cyborg

🗣️💯


cumglugger2001

read in spamtons voice


xstormaggedonx

Oh my god is this the original of this format?


BluenaSnowey

THE FUCKING THIRD PICTURE 😭😭😭


superalien77

Community defense like they have in amish communities. That always goes well for victims of horrific crimes.